Choosing CNC no metal cutting

Discussion in 'CNC Machines' started by John (Jonghyun) Lee, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. If I want to mill zirconia, pmma, wax, and other soft materials. Which CNC will last the longest with the least problems? I've been trying to choose a CNC machine for months now but everyone I talk to have different thoughts. My budget is under 50k. Recently I found some Indonesian websites that sell milling machines like 250i for 13k 350i for 28k and their roland is 14k.. I'm sure they are just scams but I am contacting them out of desperation.
     
  2. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    You would need cam software of course.
    That is really the key for good results.

    The machine....? Many to choose from both new and used. Do you enjoy mechanical work or electricity as hobby?
     
    Maks55 likes this.
  3. I never had chance to do mechanical work or electricity but I am interested in it. I put together some computers for gaming but that's really about it. I will enjoy doing it if that's what I need
     
  4. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    Maybe choose some mill with local support/service?
    (At least for your first mill)
    imes, VHF, Roland, Digital Dental Mill, ?
    Not some crazy and rare mill nobody owns.

    Want a Lava mill for cheap, with SUM3d.
    I can fix those and have spare parts.
    They are super solid mills, but BIG.
    Forget going up steps.
     
    ALCLCF and BukakiYourMom like this.
  5. Maks55

    Maks55 CAD/CAM tech

    For the milling you are looking to do I would go with the Roland mills.

    Stay away from Imes if you can help it. There are only a few companies that support them at the moment. You will not be able to get any new strategies for them either. Stay as far away from the 350I as you can. As a machine itself its great but there are many issues that follow with it as well. 550I is no longer supported by Imes either. 250i is a reliable machine but there are no new strategies for it so that sucks.

    Roland mills:
    They need Sum3D which needs to be purchased. It is an easy software to learn and there are a ton of videos and such
    Roland dwx50 is a great mill, easy to work on if it is out of warranty
    Roland 51D Newest version after the 50 great mill, very compact. (percs: user can replace spindle)
    Roland 52DC- similar to 51D but has a 6 disk changer (needs Millbox instead of sum3D)

    All roland mills 50,51,52 use 3 different types of tools
    Diamond: Zirconia, Wax ONLY
    Carbide: Zirconia, Wax, Pmma (Shorter life time of tool)
    Procut: Wax and PMMA

    All Roland Mills have a spindle life of about 2000hours. If you are milling only wax they can go up to 6,000 no problem granted that you maintain them properly.
    Roland 51 and 52DC- first spindle replacement is free. (must send spindle back to Roland)
    Roland 50 spindle is not free. Cost is around $2000 plus or minus a few bucks

    All roland machines you can calibrate on your own no need to call the support line
    For Imes you need to call for calibration help

    There is also the AG Motion 2 milling machines that can do both wet and dry (from my experience they are a bit of a pain, Cant really do any work on them on your own someone has to come out and do the repair)

    I think that covers everything. Feel free to ask any questions
     
    ALCLCF, BukakiYourMom and biodentg like this.
  6. cadfan

    cadfan Moderator Staff Member

    Maks 55
    A lot right a lot wrong no Roland mill needs SUM thats BS
    Roland has no auto calibration just ax zero setter
    Imes can be calibrated by your own as long as your not a nbr and able to read numbers
    Strategies there is so many more out maybe you dont develop ??
    If i believed in your big master i cant really switch btw. wet and dry and own a Roland but i am happy with my 250 i can in less than 5 minutes gave one of your guys tipps that yours look not like it looks no real brainer at the mill.sorry
    but you still need a bit more brain.
    On sales point your wright the Rolands are less trouble but they cover less of modern dentistry thats why AG , Ivoclar , Heraus, Straumann,Zubler, Imes , MB, Arum and a few other all go another way wet and dry with more options but i think Roland is that time not able go this way but its future.
    Each doc in US will have with Progamill one a more powerfull mill each of your Roland customers has that said it works Dentsply Sirona became big with a bigger peace of shit, but it doesnt hurt you as HS because you sell them all .
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  7. Maks55

    Maks55 CAD/CAM tech

    Wow what a mouth full my god!!!
    So Roland doesn’t need SUM3D eh? Although this is true I have used both that and work nc, night and day differences. I guess it really depends who your support is for the software side of things.

    The second half of your message I have no idea what you are talked my about. Something about Roland wet and dry?

    Everything I stated above this things I picked up on. If I ever started a lab (won’t happen) that’s what a would use. It’s what I support on a daily. The overall packages you get are really top of the line and the support team backs up the products. I just had a conversation last night with a Russian customer of mine. He was comparing the service he gets now vs when he was back home.
    But by no means am I telling anyone here if you want a good mill go to cap. No just my opinion
     
    biodentg likes this.
  8. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    Why do you say...no new strategy?
    Sum3d and many other optiins can power the imes first of all.

    There is no maintance for the spindle of the Roland also. Vacuuming you mills does nothing to extend its life.

    I have 16 large mills and a decade ago i had a roland for a few months. I service 3d systems printers for over a decade amd was first in usa with sum3d a decade ago. I fix all my own mills and even built two by myself.

    Calm down on your claims and statements young one
     
  9. cadfan

    cadfan Moderator Staff Member

    I talked about the future !! and theirs more out than wnc maybe it works not as good as your special version on the roland i dont know
    but on a few mills it does.
    I dont think you have any plan how the future goes a lot of your fullzi work will not reach any lab and for the rest you have no plan or solution. HS has belive me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
    v450 likes this.
  10. Maks55

    Maks55 CAD/CAM tech

    I never said imes can’t be powered by other systems.
    Yes there is maintenance on the spindle on a Roland so you’re wrong there.
    Vacuuming goes a long way, especially on the 50s
    The rest is your opinion just like my statement. Welcome to the forums
     
  11. Maks55

    Maks55 CAD/CAM tech

    I honestly the future of dental will be in 3D printing. Printers are only getting faster and better print quality. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next 10years printers take over the industry
     
  12. cadfan

    cadfan Moderator Staff Member

    they are only a small part no printer in this world is as accurate as the cheapest mill and usable for multi propose . you jump to short no solution for your Roland customers.
     
  13. Maks55

    Maks55 CAD/CAM tech

    You are 100% correct about the current printers but the industry and technology is growing at a vast rate. Hence the 10year prediction. For the time being cnc milling will trump the market. That’s not just Roland, vhf, ag, imes ect....
    My love for Roland is just from personal experience,easy use and repair. If I didn’t have the Roland my next best bet would be AG hands down.
    I just don’t like imes. I used the 250i for a short time before it broke down and we removed it from production. We also had the 450i and 550i. 450 was sold off unfortunately (loved that machine). 550i is very similar but I was not pleased with the design
    350i was a fantastic concept but it shook way to much causing large bridges to fracture mid job. And then it broke down out of the blue. Not sure why it was never repaired but we had a tech working on it for a long time.
    Our production uses the 550i now but I had to design a few parts for it to minimize the risk of the machine getting jammed and lose calibration
     
  14. cadfan

    cadfan Moderator Staff Member

    No problem i have a imes i am their greatest fan no i understand why resellers sale these or that i understand why you love the Rolands but i see the hole market with his options and risks and no printer or Roland has an answer for small labs
    we have a new member here from Schütz they sell the 350 in combination with incise maybe he can chime in
    i know the real expense printers too but none is able to substitute a mill what we see is a lot hybrid production but thats no solution for a small lab with limited resources

    not against you your welcome and i hear your experience and calibration is the biggest shit on imes could be done better with a bit money 500 euro per mill. again your welcome.
     
  15. joshuaCAD/CAM

    joshuaCAD/CAM Moderator Staff Member

    Hi guys,

    I've read this thread a few times. It is not clear to me where I can help or answer some questions.
    Schütz is selling the 350i in a combination with the DS10, as cadfan wrote.
    Upcoming problems with new machines are normal, I guess it's a problem of many companies that after a product launch some things coming up.
    But at the latest version of the 350i is pretty good.
    We sold a lot systems right now...the service/support thing regarding imes is a really important thing and I guess we (Schütz) can solve a lot by ourself. The machine service and the complete software support (remote/CAM) is also nearly done by our support.

    Regarding the strategys maks55 wrote about I have no clue what he has meant. CAM strategys?
    At the moment we are working with imes at the mono strategy, so we are working permanent at improvements.
    Anyway, If someone have questions I'm trying to answer them...

    Hopefully you guys had a wonderful christmas...
    =)
     
    cadfan likes this.
  16. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    People have been saying that since 1986.
    After having owned around $8 million in 3d printers and servicing them I would disagree.
    What do you do to your spindle? Clean the collet? That's about it, right?
     
    BukakiYourMom, Elab and joshuaCAD/CAM like this.
  17. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson


    There is no maintenance on a Roland spindle. Just clean the collet if that makes you feel better I guess?
    vacuuming does nothing either to lubricate the bearings or screws, or to get out any debris that is in them.
    There is no way to grease the moving parts of the Roland. Vacuum just makes you think you actually did something helpful.
    It doesn't.

    I have many mills that add grease automatically to all moving parts. My two HAAS for example.
    There is no need to clean or vacuum with that machine either. IT always pushed out dirt from all bearings.

    Same with my 12 big German mills. No vacuum, and I pump grease to all moving parts with 15 grease fittings.
    Spindle gets nothing. We have so many mills over a decade with same Spindle.
    The HAAS is now well past 5years machining only Titanium and no issues.
     
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